18:10 < kalila> ******************** start *********************
18:10 < alsadi> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fontconfig_packaging_tips
18:11 < kalila> first, we have the issue of the core team
18:11 < kalila> what do you guys think
18:11 < kalila> chahibi: KhaledHosny ?
18:15 < chahibi> kalila, I just support adn's view, we should delete the notion
18:15 < kalila> I'm not too fond of it either
18:16 < KhaledHosny> I think core team were overloaded with tasks (pere the charter), I think we rather need a sort of admins not a core team
18:16 < chahibi> kalila, you are not late!!
18:16 < alnokta2> i think the time is 9PM cairo time
18:16 < kalila> alright - so we should have an admin team
18:17 < kalila> and, other maintainers/developers form the Arabeyes Team whatever role they take
18:17 < KhaledHosny> every project maintainer is responsiple about the internals of his project, and since our project are loosely conncted, this is very natural
18:17 < chahibi> purpose?
18:17 < kalila> say, KDE maintainer or that developer
18:17 < kalila> chahibi: admin team: the server, installing stuff and what not. Largely what adn is making an excellent job of
18:18 < kalila> he's good, but I suspect we need another with him - could be hard to find, we'll see
18:18 -!- alnokta3 [n=alnokta@41.232.217.146] has joined #arabeyes
18:18 < kalila> alnokta3: is this the one ? :)
18:18 < KhaledHosny> right, adn is doing almost all the work and it isn't good idea to overload one person with it
18:19 < kalila> so, to recap: an admin team, and the Arabeyes team is formed of the maintainters/developers naturally
18:19 < chahibi> kalila, I will be the next probably
18:19 < chahibi> kalila, adn gave me an account on sina, and he is opening accesses for me step by step 
18:19 < alnokta3> kalila, yes ;)
18:19 < kalila> chahibi: great, learn the stuff bit by bit!
18:19 < kalila> alnokta3: we're talking about the core team
18:19 -!- alnokta [n=alnokta@wikimedia/alnokta] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)]
18:20 < kalila> we said - we should abolish the rigidity of the notion, and have one admin team that takes care of the server (adn + chahibi in the future, and may be someone else). The rest of Arabayes is one team that is naturally formed of maintainters and developers
18:20 < KhaledHosny> kalila: I agree, "we" are the arabeyes team -as usual- and core team will be arabeyes admins
18:21 -!- alnokta [n=alnokta@wikimedia/alnokta] has joined #arabeyes
18:21 < kalila> KhaledHosny: I'm honestly for ablishing the "core" thjing all together, and abolishing much of the oficial rigidity of the old stuff. That stuff is old, and it's written with a different mentatlity to ours. We should seek such tests when we need them
18:22 < kalila> opinions?
18:22 < chahibi> +1
18:23  * alnokta hates his ISP
18:23 < kalila> KhaledHosny: ?
18:24 < chahibi> kalila, did you read my last personal email? (status report)
18:24 < kalila> chahibi: yes - very well done
18:24 < kalila> did you write it alone?
18:25 < chahibi> the "core team" notion was designed for a too much optimistic of Arabeyes role and future
18:26 < chahibi> We are no more than handful randomly engaged persons, a "core" team is nonsense
18:26 < KhaledHosny> kalila: well, I still think we need that to some extent
18:26 < chahibi> kalila, yes
18:26 < kalila> KhaledHosny: the admin team? let's just call it that - the "admin team" :)
18:26 < KhaledHosny> kalila: for example, who would approve new prjects, give svn access, on what basis, blah blah
18:27 < kalila> good point
18:27 < kalila> hmm
18:27 < KhaledHosny> chahibi now has access to sina, OK but who has the right to decide to give or denay people's access?
18:28 < kalila> it doesn't have to be so official. When we need somebody, we give him access
18:28 < KhaledHosny> that is why I still think, that "core" part is needed
18:28 < kalila> I see your point
18:28 -!- Guest81119 [n=Mohammed@62.240.62.168] has joined #arabeyes
18:28 < kalila> so - Admin team, + core team of 5 people who get to vote on new projects/granting svn access?
18:29 < KhaledHosny> hmm, sounds good
18:29 < kalila> chahibi: ?
18:29 < alnokta> i think svn access should be given lightly :) if one abuses it, they lose it
18:29 < chahibi> kalila, my father helped me :p
18:29 < chahibi> (joking)
18:29 < chahibi> you remind me of my teachers :)
18:30 < chahibi> KhaledHosny, if it is about decision, decisions are made in a consensus way, that of the active contributors
18:30 < kalila> yeah - I kind of deplore making it so rigid and official :)
18:30 < KhaledHosny> the core team has to have some light tasks as a kind of Arabeyes representatives
18:31 < kalila> let it be just easy flow... SVN access: translation maintainers will decide whether to grant it. Grant it lightly and revoke if needed.
18:31 < KhaledHosny> consus is a vague term, and then you'll need people to decide that we've consus and approve or deny
18:31 < kalila> new projects: consensus of whoever is active at the time and shows up
18:32 < kalila> KhaledHosny: let's break down what core team would do.
18:33 < KhaledHosny> that was my next point :)
18:33 < kalila> 1) granting SVN access - I think translation maintainers should do that   2) approving new projects: this happens so rarely that we should just have consensus. Heck, if KhaledHosny or chahibi shows up and approves a project I wouldn't have a problem with it
18:33 < chahibi> kalila, sponsorship
18:33 < kalila> chahibi: we're coming there
18:34 < kalila> I think we're being too tough on approving projects. Let approve lightly, they either prove themselves or - die
18:34 < KhaledHosny> if we are to register Arabeyes in some legal system, we need a represintative(s)
18:34 < adn> I'm here \o/
18:34 < kalila> KhaledHosny: that, we'll come to in a minute :)
18:34 < adn> yes, I want someone with me doing the admin
18:34 < kalila> but I don't think an official core team would be needed
18:34 < adn> I've thought of chahibi 
18:35 < kalila> adn: welcome :)
18:35 < adn> but even one more is also welcome
18:35 < kalila> adn: daif?
18:35 < KhaledHosny> 3) dismiss dead projects, or declare them dead in a clear way
18:35 < daif> kalila: yes
18:35 < kalila> KhaledHosny: admin team :D
18:36 < kalila> no? of course, with consultation with the project maintainer
18:36 < chahibi> kalila, if just one of the active *project maintainers* has enough confidence on a new contributor/project proposal he/she can give green light to the admin to apply the necessary settings
18:36 < adn> kalila: yes, that would be great
18:36 -!- alnokta2 [n=alnokta@wikimedia/alnokta] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
18:36 < KhaledHosny> kalila: I see admin team from a more technical oeriented view, whath very little "politicasl" decision taking
18:37 < adn> kalila: especially on the website administration side
18:37 < adn> kalila: daif seems very motivated and competent
18:37 < KhaledHosny> now that is funny, I've an unexpected guest that I've to meet!
18:38 < kalila> adn: would you seek an invitation to him please ?
18:38 < kalila> KhaledHosny: that means you're quitting now? aw
18:39 < alsadi> KhaledHosny: answer my question before you leave
18:40 < chahibi> What I find interesting to suggest is to work on a linear way
18:41 < kalila> meaning?
18:41 < chahibi> kalila, we should make one team and work on the same project at once
18:41 < adn> kalila: sorry, I did not understand :)
18:42 -!- alnokta3 [n=alnokta@41.232.217.146] has quit [No route to host]
18:42 < adn> kalila: you mean "give him an account" ?
18:43 < adn> that's OK with me
18:43 < kalila> adn: I mean you can invite him officially to co-admin with you
18:43 < kalila> adn: yes
18:43 -!- chahibi_ [n=chahibi@unaffiliated/chahibi] has joined #arabeyes
18:43 -!- chahibi_ [n=chahibi@unaffiliated/chahibi] has quit [Client Quit]
18:44 -!- kebdani [n=kebdani@adsl196-192-35-217-196.adsl196-10.iam.net.ma] has joined #arabeyes
18:44 < adn> ok, I'll do so when my computer is back from being broken...
18:45 < kalila> adn: great, and thanks for being with us despite your computer problem
18:46 < kalila> so to recap: 1) admin team: adn, chahibi, daif   2) Translation/Project maintainers and active contributors loosely together decide on new projects  3) SVN accounts granted whenever maintainers request it
18:46 < kalila> adn: chahibi : KhaledHosny : ok with that?
18:46 < kalila> kebdani: salam, welcomne
18:46 < kebdani> Salam
18:46 < chahibi> kalila, What I find interesting to suggest is to work on a linear way, we should make one team and work on the same *translation* project at once
18:47 < adn> kalila: ok for me
18:47 < chahibi> kalila, ok
18:47 < adn> chahibi: and what if an argument is started?
18:47 < adn> one should leave for ever?
18:47 < kalila> tought to force people to do that :)
18:47 < adn> because he can't work on something else?
18:48 < kalila> one of the things I hated about the old stuff is the centrality of decision making... it demotivates people. Let them work for themselves and leave their space :)
18:48 < kalila> no?
18:49 < adn> yes
18:49 < adn> definitely
18:49 < chahibi> yes
18:49 < kalila> alright. 3) SVN and a bug management system
18:49 < chahibi> kalila, I liked the way Gnome reached 100%
18:49 < kalila> adn: how is trac setup at the moment?
18:50 < chahibi> kalila, we were a self motivated team
18:50 < adn> kalila: up and running but with no ACLs
18:50 < adn> so nobody can add tickets for now
18:50 < kalila> chahibi: yup - can't force people to do stuff
18:50 < kalila> ACL?
18:52 < adn> access lists
18:53 < kalila> adn: can we have all projects under the main root directory instead of the currently nested setup. So we would have /kde, /gnome, ./itl, ./minbar ?
18:53 < kalila> do you think that's better?
18:53 < adn> kalila: I can make aliases
18:54 < daif> kalila: yes better
18:54 < kalila> adn: I think if we have a total checkout of the repo, svn can easily move stuff around. svn move orig dest. I personally like the GNOME setup like this
18:55 < kalila> then, one trac instance would be easily set up to cover that
18:55 < kalila> thoughts?
18:56 < chahibi> kalila, we should prepare the new website project 
18:57 < kalila> yes, coming there in a minute :)
18:57 < chahibi> kalila, content (Guides, references.. ), interface (web translation frontend, ?)
18:58 < kalila> yup yup yup, one minute after we agree on an svn/trac setup
18:58 < chahibi> kalila, we have no straight translation guide, current ones are dated
18:59 -!- farag [n=chatzill@84.36.7.8] has joined #arabeyes
18:59 < kalila> farag: salam
18:59 < kalila> chahibi: here a website enthusiast comes 
18:59 < daif> I think we need online translate tool like launchpad.net (bugs system ....)
18:59 < adn> kalila: I think we should use one only trac instance :)
18:59 < farag> Salam alaykum All :)
18:59 < kalila> adn: yup
19:00 < kalila> daif: which? launchpad.net is proprietary, there is pootle
19:00 < farag> Salam kalila
19:00 < kalila> I personally find pootle difficult to work with
19:01 < kalila> adn: would there be a problem with moving stuff around?
19:01 < alnokta> +1 for web translation interface
19:01 < daif> kalila: this one https://translations.launchpad.net
19:02 < kalila> daif: we don't have the software for that :(
19:02 < alnokta> salam farag 
19:03 -!- Guest81119 [n=Mohammed@62.240.62.168] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
19:03 < kalila> daif: meaning, we can't install it for ourselves
19:04 < farag> Salam alnokt :) I am so sorry..I am just not familiar with nick names :( sorry Djihad..I had to check site to know your are kalila !
19:04 < chahibi> I find myself repeating the same remarks to new contributors, (I often copy paste instructions), because there is no clear docs
19:04 < chahibi> But if we were to concentrate on something, it should be on the techdict
19:04 < chahibi> It is getting slow
19:05 < chahibi> kalila, let's force ourselves to discuss a number of critical terms (based on the stats you made agains our translation memory) in a fixed schedule
19:05 < kalila> ok - so we need a new website
19:05 < kalila> let's discuss and decide on this
19:05 < alnokta> chahibi, so make a clear guide?
19:06 < kalila> chahibi: a clear guide should be made in the wiki
19:06 < kalila> there is already a start I think, soemwhere
19:06 < alnokta> kalila, the web translation interface would need to be custom made
19:06 < kalila> well, you'll be delighted to knlow that I've been working on one slowly over the past weeks
19:07 < kalila> I'll post about it in due time
19:07 < alnokta> oh great :)
19:07 < farag> alnokta, "web translation interface" do you mean a collaborative translation software?
19:07 < kalila> the discussion is moving slow... chahibi adn have connection problems I think
19:08 < alnokta> farag, no i mean a very easy tool, like rosetta
19:08 < daif> kalila: we have use pootle OR make our tool , I believe this well make translate very easy .... 
19:08 < farag> aha..ok
19:08 < kalila> daif: do you know Python/Django?@
19:08 < chahibi> kalila, you, KhaledHosny, me. Invite Gharbeias, Mamoun (techdict)
19:09 < chahibi> ping
19:09 < daif> kalila: NO (I don't like python)
19:09 < kalila> lol
19:09 < farag> kalila, I am sorry..but .. do you have a specific schedule for the meeting?
19:10 < kalila> on the techdict, it needs 1) cleaning, from a to Z, there are a lot of technincal but not computing terms 2) copy the translations from the discussions. We're currently only discussing, not actually copying to the main space
19:10 < kalila> farag: yes - Khaled posted it on the mailing list, but the problem is that some members are having internet connectivity problems and so discussions get cut off
19:10 < farag> it seems a lot of work there in the techdict
19:11 < kalila> farag: We'll discuss the website in a minute - now let's concentrate on the techdict
19:11 < farag> alright
19:11 < kalila> any other points about the technical distionary? chahibi ? farag ? (see my points above)
19:12 < farag> I just downloaded it few hours ago..and I see many pages in the wiki that I can help in inshaAllah
19:12 -!- Ahmed [n=Ahmed@41.235.149.1] has joined #arabeyes
19:12 -!- chahibi_ [n=chahibi@unaffiliated/chahibi] has joined #arabeyes
19:12 < kalila> farag: good, thanks :)
19:13 < farag> I will go through it, and find what I can do, and report you back on the list
19:13 < chahibi_> if we were to concentrate on something, it should be on the techdict
19:13 < chahibi_> let's force ourselves to discuss a number of critical terms (based on the stats you made agains our translation memory) in a fixed schedule
19:13 < chahibi_> kalila, you, KhaledHosny, me. Invite Gharbeia, Ahmed, Mamoun (techdict)
19:13 < farag> I am so delighted with what I saw and what I am going through..really
19:13  * chahibi_ has connection problems
19:14 < kalila> chahibi_: I said above : on the techdict, it needs 1) cleaning, from a to Z, there are a lot of technincal but not computing terms 2) copy the translations from  the discussions. We're currently only discussing, not actually copying to the main space
19:14 < kalila> any more?
19:14 < kalila> farag: glad you liked it, it needs a lot of cleaning though :)
19:15 < farag> no problem :)) :) I have the courage, and I will definitely find time inshallah...this is a very important thing..to make available a free dictionary in IT
19:15 < alnokta> do we have a page on the wiki with the most used terms in all of our translation projects?
19:15 < alnokta> (page with links to each term on techdict)
19:15 < kalila> alnokta: no, there is an entryin my blog about it
19:16 < farag> alnokta, I didn't notice such
19:16 < alnokta> kalila, can you make it ?
19:16 < kalila> alnokta: there is one already, it's in my post.it just needs wikifying, can you do that?
19:17  * alnokta looks at djihed.com
19:17 < kalila> farag: can you take care of cleaning the dictionary of terms that technical, but not about computing?
19:17 -!- chahibi_ [n=chahibi@unaffiliated/chahibi] has quit ["Leaving"]
19:17 < farag> ok..yeah..it's not a problem
19:18 < kalila> farag: start from the letter B, I think I cleaned A
19:18 < farag> I may just need to discuss some terms if in vague
19:18 < farag> you know ..technology terms sometimes get on borders
19:18 < farag> alright! This is my first task then :)
19:19 < alnokta> kalila, could you give me a link ? ;)
19:19 < daif> relive Arabic OpenCD :)
19:19 < kalila> farag: have you used wiki before? there is a template in our wiki, for words that should be reviewed to be delete
19:19 < kalila> d
19:19 < kalila> you can use that
19:19 < kalila> let me find it
19:20 < kalila> alnokta: http://djihed.com/arabisation/statistical-analysis-of-strings-in-popular-open-source-projects
19:20 < farag> yes 
19:21 < kalila> farag: {{حذف مصطلح|السبب}}
19:21 < farag> you have all terms mashallah very organized
19:21 < kalila> farag: add that to the pages that should be deleted
19:21 -!- chahibi_ [n=chahibi@unaffiliated/chahibi] has joined #arabeyes
19:21 < farag> one second..I have this page in my bookmarks
19:22 < farag> added
19:22 < kalila> farag: you also mentioned that you'd like to get involved in the website, right?
19:23 < farag> yes..of course
19:23 < kalila> have you done that before? what websites?
19:23 < farag> it's my job for 10 y
19:23 < kalila> alnokta: can you please wikify that list of terms
19:24 < farag> ok.. :) arabbix.org
19:24 < farag> I found it expired..and afrad it goes to..you know..all these ads pages..and others..so I registered it again
19:25 < kalila> that's very nice
19:25 < kalila> we need a new site for Arabeyes, badly
19:25 < farag> I also worked with CMSs like: b2evolution, wordpress, phpwebsite
19:26 < kalila> farag: if you can quickly put together a prototype somewhere that we could work with that would be very good. It has to be in Arabic, and with easy to make pages
19:26 < kalila> I don't mind making it static, something like transmissionbt.com
19:26 < farag> friends..if you every need help in registering a domain name, or cannot extend its expiration, please immediatly contact me
19:27 < farag> i am a reseller ,,and I can do it for you in same time
19:27 < kalila> that would probably come handy at some point :)
19:27 < farag> any time :)
19:27 < daif> at lest we need portal that support multi language and modules (we can make our status page or online translate tool)
19:28 < kalila> daif: yeah
19:28 < alnokta> kalila, well, i cannot make the regex, you need to find (number space $term) and replace it with # [[techdict:$term]] 
19:28 < alnokta> http://cvs.arabeyes.org/viewcvs/*checkout*/translate/technicaldictionary/analysis/common_techdict?rev=HEAD
19:28 < farag> I recommend a highly supported CMS - and stable, secure - like Joomal or mambo
19:28 < kalila> I don't mind it if it is easy to administer
19:29 < kalila> farag: feel free to prototype with what you are comfortable with
19:29  * alnokta recommends mediawiki 
19:29 < farag> alnokta, well.. wikis are ..just wikis :) :)
19:30 < alnokta> kalila, can you make that regex? 
19:30 < daif> http://drupal.org/
19:30 < alnokta> farag, i have seen wikis that doesn't appear like wikis
19:30 < farag> some "huge" CMSs include: forum, wiki, library..etc. as modules
19:30 < kalila> alnokta: take that list and do:
19:30 < alnokta> farag, you can tweak the skin
19:30 < farag> yes, I know, they can be customized
19:31 < farag> but, see, they are built to be wikis
19:31 < alnokta> farag, what do you need from a CMS? define that
19:31 < farag> I will see and discuss, if we need the features of other CMSs - because familiarity is important too - 
19:31 < daif> every think available in drupal ( it is like a framework)
19:32 < alnokta> drupal sucks :P
19:32 < farag> drupal also has been in top
19:32 < alnokta> nodes and stuff
19:32 < daif> think=things 
19:32 < farag> and many people worked on its localization and arabic support
19:32 < alnokta> mediawiki now have excellent arabic support
19:33 < alnokta> (1.13, not 1.12)
19:33 < kalila> alnokta:  for i in `cat common_techdict | awk '{print $2 }' ` ; do echo "* [[techdict:${i}]]" ; done
19:33 < farag> let me check the latest developments in these systems, and report you a brief conclusion on them
19:33 < kalila> alnokta: do that :)
19:33 < farag>  sure :)
19:33 < daif> alnokta: in drupal u can make ur own module but in wiki u can make ur own page
19:33 < alnokta> kalila, thanks man :)
19:33 < farag> daif, it depeds on what we really need, and , more importantly: in future
19:34 < farag> I mean: it has to be : scalable
19:34 -!- Netsplit brown.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: MSameerWork
19:34 < JeremyBicha> and who will maintain it, mediawiki's easy
19:34 < farag> and it has to be compatible with most systems in case we wanted or needed a change
19:34 < alnokta> mediawiki is what you need
19:35 < alnokta> just try it
19:35 < farag> for example, if for any reason a development ceased ..I mean for that project (i.e. mediawiki)
19:35 < farag> how will we go next?
19:35 -!- Netsplit over, joins: MSameerWork
19:35 < alnokta> well, it will never cease
19:35 < farag> so, in terms of technology, it has to be flexible and compatible
19:36 < kalila> so it's between drupal and joomla ?
19:36 < alnokta> wikipedia is running it
19:36 < farag> this is one reason or scenario
19:36 < alnokta> and is supported by wikimedia foundation
19:36 < farag> other scenarios: expanding 
19:36 < kalila> mediawiki would limit us a lot I think, trust me I used for main websites... (such as arabicopencd.org)
19:36 < farag> internet witnessed many projects died
19:37 < farag> so, I have to be careful in such a decision
19:37 < kalila> farag: thanks, you can post a quick discussion and recommend a system. Take your time
19:37 < daif> alnokta: I know it, we have already wiki ... we something to do what we want ... I can't explain in English ( wiki for documentations and static pages)
19:38 < farag> and have to be ready with my backups of (say: mysql ) and have other files ready to go ..if we once decided to
19:38 < farag> I can put something for you to see
19:38 < alnokta> kalila, how mw is limiting?
19:39 < farag> and try..if you found it not easy or something, we can stick to wiki systems
19:39 < kalila> alnokta: largely static... can I have a script on Arabeyes automatically process statistics and put them on some page? how about SVN statistics?
19:40 < kalila> it's possible.. but awkward
19:40 < daif> alnokta: we have some scripts we can't add it in wiki (it's very bad idai to make script to update wiki page) we need module controller like dupal or other CMS
19:40 < KhaledHosny> back
19:41 < KhaledHosny> for the website, I highly encourage using drupal
19:41 < farag> there are main things to consider: 
19:41 < adn> kalila: I think there wouldn't be problems
19:41 < farag> - system security
19:41 < KhaledHosny> it has more Arabic devs than any other CMS, and I think we can get help with it easily
19:41 < adn> kalila: to move stuff
19:41 < farag> - community size - experts I mean not users only - and support
19:41 < alnokta> kalila, there is the new API 
19:41 -!- chahibi [n=chahibi@unaffiliated/chahibi] has quit [Success]
19:41 < kalila> farag: we have two votes for drupal ( KhaledHosny, daif ), one for MW
19:42 < farag> - modularity and scalability 
19:42 < farag> well :)
19:42 < kalila> adn: It would be great if we would do that + have one trac instance live - how easy is that?
19:42 < alsadi> sorry I was away
19:42 < alsadi> regarding drupal
19:42 < farag> so I will go with drupal than :)
19:42 < KhaledHosny> MW sucks bilinguality wise
19:42 < KhaledHosny> it isn't an option here
19:42 < kalila> oh yeah
19:43 < adn> kalila: we would have to move all the repositories to only one, I guess
19:43 < farag> trac - if you mean the bug system - is easy to be put on the same server, or you mean it has to be integrated in the CMS?
19:43 < kalila> can't trac track more than one repo in the same server?
19:43 < adn> but I don't know how easy it would be to do that
19:43 < alsadi> we have translated them for Ojuba, and I sent them to Jad (for Arabic ubuntu team) to merge them with what he have and now it's translated. we will release them soo
19:43 < adn> kalila: maybe, yes
19:43 < kalila> farag: doesn't have to be, but could be
19:43 < adn> kalila: that would be the best
19:44 < kalila> adn: see whether we can do that
19:44 < KhaledHosny> alsadi: translated drupal?
19:44 < alsadi> yes
19:44 < adn> kalila: ok, but I hope we have minutes of the IRC log
19:44 < kalila> KhaledHosny: about the techdict, could you start taking care of mioving stuff agreed on from the talk pages to the main pages? we need that
19:44 < alsadi> but after trying drupal on Ojuba for a while we find it's not a good thing for us
19:44 < kalila> adn: I'm logging
19:44 < KhaledHosny> alsadi: I've been working on it (drupal 6) for a while, I didn't see that work
19:44 < adn> kalila: and I think I am going to delegate that and many other stuff for the coming weeks
19:44 < alsadi> yes drupal 6
19:45 < adn> kalila: cause I have my concours on September 1st
19:45 < kalila> adn: we're in no rush :)
19:45 < farag> ok, may I check if there is a CMS system that incorporates trac ?
19:45 < KhaledHosny> kalila: I do when I found it
19:45 < alnokta> KhaledHosny, how it sucks in bilingualiutuy?
19:45 < adn> and everyday I am studying for it currently
19:45 < alsadi> KhaledHosny: please contact Jad for that, he has the complete translation
19:45 < kalila> adn: good luck, you need to do well :)
19:45 < adn> and will be doing it then from Sept. 15th to November 15th :)
19:45 -!- Netsplit brown.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: MSameerWork
19:45 < KhaledHosny> alsadi: then, what a waste of time that we hade! why this wasn't done upstream from the start?
19:45 < farag> good luck inshallah adn
19:46 -!- Netsplit over, joins: MSameerWork
19:46 < daif> a lot of modules http://drupal.org/project/Modules
19:46 < alsadi> KhaledHosny: I for got the whole thing as you know, I fight alone!
19:46 < farag> so..votes go now for drupal?
19:46 < kalila> I think so :)
19:47 < KhaledHosny> alnokta: you can't have a true bi lingual site, with translated contect according tho chosing language, aside from the inadequate maultipage way done on meta/commons.wikimedia
19:47 < kalila> guys, I think we should move to the next thing... Registering Arabeyes as a legal entity
19:47 < alsadi> We have try it for ojuba.org and we did not like it.
19:47 < alsadi> it=drupal
19:47 < kalila> alsadi: problems?
19:48 < alsadi> no problems at all, it's good with RTL
19:48 < KhaledHosny> we have MSameer, who is a quite "the drupal guy", and he will help
19:48 < alnokta> KhaledHosny, it isn't working for commons? i thought (along with others) that it indeed works 
19:48 < alsadi> but the wiki was better choice for me
19:48 < farag> well..we can make a trial period, and all of us vote again, if not, we can stick to wikis..or whatever next?
19:48 < MSameer> is it the meeting ?
19:48 < MSameer> missed that
19:48 < KhaledHosny> alnokta: in an inefficient way, not what I'd call "truely bilingual"
19:48 < kalila> farag: the right way to go
19:48 -!- farghal [n=ahmad@62.117.50.4] has joined #arabeyes
19:48 < kalila> MSameer: welcome
19:48 < daif> kalila: we have wiki module in drupla
19:49 < KhaledHosny> alsadi: which Jad should I contact?
19:49 < alsadi> http://ubuntu-arabic.org/
19:49 < KhaledHosny> OK
19:49 < farghal> السلام عليكم
19:49 < alnokta> KhaledHosny, how do you see a truely bilingualk?
19:49 < alnokta> وعليكم السلام
19:49 < MSameer> the drupal wiki module is not that good IIRC and don't ask me why cause I can't remember
19:49 < kalila> oh that's nice, who did ubuntu-arabic.org ?
19:49 < alnokta> أين أنت فرغل!
19:49 < farag> وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله
19:49 < kalila> farghal: welcome
19:50 < farghal> alnokta, عفوا نومة العصر طالت هههه
19:50 -!- gharbeia [n=amr@82.201.199.149] has joined #arabeyes
19:50 < KhaledHosny> alnokta: check how drupal does it to see what I mean
19:50 < farghal> kalila, hello!
19:50 < alnokta> :)
19:50 < MSameer> ubuntu-arabic.org is a normal drupal site. Not that complicated
19:50 < KhaledHosny> also, MW is a gorilla that is hard ti fix or extend
19:50 < MSameer> MW ?
19:51 < kalila> who did ubuntu-arabic.org?
19:51 < daif> drupal make this http://www.spreadfirefox.com/
19:51 < KhaledHosny> it is OK for a wiki but not as our main site
19:51 < MSameer> MW = Medea Wiki
19:51 < KhaledHosny> MW==mediawiki
19:51 < alnokta> farag, please give it a try 
19:51 < farag> alnokta, give which?
19:52 < MSameer> Ideally, I'd vote for dokuwiki but no one's done a large Arabic website with it I guess
19:52 < KhaledHosny> MSameer: they copleted drupal 6 translation, that why they were refered too here
19:52 < alnokta> farag, mediawiki
19:52 < MSameer> and it's a one man show (TM) so I'm not sure what will happen if the author decided to abandon it
19:53 < MSameer> KhaledHosny: who are "they" ?
19:53 < alnokta> dokuwiki sucks too
19:53 < farag> well..votes say drupal.. we can also try MW next, or in parallel..
19:53 < KhaledHosny> MSameer: ubuntu-arabic.org
19:53 < kalila> farag: try drupal first
19:53 < alnokta> probably it is * sucks except mediawiki :P
19:53 < kalila> gharbeia: salam
19:53 < farag> kalila, alright
19:53 < KhaledHosny> but then, we need to define what we need from the new site
19:53 < kalila> farghal: what's your availability these days?
19:53 < MSameer> alnokta: be constructive: why does dokuwiki suck _for a wiki_ ?
19:54 < KhaledHosny> 1) multilingual
19:54 < gharbeia> Salam, kalila
19:54 < farag> things easy to read about, but, when you're in, you may change your mind completely
19:54 < farghal> kalila, not much.. my summer internship eats away most of my time. I can handle small files, though.
19:54 < kalila> farghal: good luck :)
19:54 < KhaledHosny> 2) have a way to manage projects and subprojects
19:55 < farghal> kalila, thanks!
19:55 < MSameer> KhaledHosny: what do you mean by "manage projects and sub-projects" ?
19:56 < alnokta> farghal, you said you will translate xfce
19:56 -!- User14 [n=chatzill@82.137.248.28] has joined #arabeyes
19:56 < daif> MSameer: list our project and provide information about it 
19:56 < alnokta> msameer its like a taste thing, besides its file based 
19:56 < kalila> farghal: do XFCE :)  it's not big, how many are left 1500 or something to complete it, right alnokta?
19:57 < farghal> alnokta, i know... and its files are mostly small... though i'm yet to install it here :-) i'll need time to setup my environment
19:57 < alnokta> authentication was a pain afaik
19:57 < farag> he might mean project management module included in the system..as part of it
19:57 < KhaledHosny> MSameer: to have a way to set a project page with maintainer, members, description. then some projects can be devided into sub-projects, say Quran project -> [libquran, qtquran, unicode integration, tex support, etc..]
19:57 < alnokta> yes kalila 
19:57 < MSameer> alnokta: so you are one of those newbies who fancy pluging in a database whenever possible
19:57 < KhaledHosny> with some sort of svn integration and such
19:57 < alnokta> msameer exactly :)
19:57 < farghal> alnokta: oh well. sudo pacman -S xfce4 ;-)
19:58 < gharbeia> KhaledHosny: All this, including a wiki, can be done with Drupal and contrib modules, no?
19:58 < alnokta> farghal, what env? all you need is to translate
19:58 < MSameer> alnokta: authentication was never a problem. I even managed to get dokuwiki to authenticate  via the drupal db
19:58 < KhaledHosny> gharbeia: yup, I'm listing our needs to be considered
19:58 < alnokta> english -> arabic farghal 
19:59 < farghal> alnokta: to test the translation, and see the phrases in their context. qulaity translation, man!
19:59 < farghal> :-)
19:59 < kalila> could we move into discussing registering Arabeyes as a legal entity?
19:59 < MSameer> registering ae as a legal entity ?
19:59 < MSameer> I'm away until you guys are done with that
19:59 < alnokta> heh
19:59 < alnokta> why?
19:59 < farag> :)
20:00 < KhaledHosny> MSameer: I'd like to hear your idea
20:00 < kalila> MSameer: alright we'll call you when done :)
20:00 < farag> kalila, I have some thoughts on the Arabeyes foundation..may I post them here? 
20:00 < kalila> org with preferably a charitable status, it's professional and allows us to seek funding and google SoC projects
20:00 < kalila> farag: sure, go on
20:00 < MSameer> KhaledHosny: nop. I'm out of that discussion
20:00 < farag> I think this issue should be detailed first, with budget 
20:00 < farag> needed and benefit outcomes, and also obstacles and bueraucracies
20:00 < farag> that will affect the project's freedom and flow of work.
20:00 < farag> Details or steps, and so on.
20:00 < farag> Scenarios like what will it be the matter when we need an "official"
20:00 < farag> response to something (i.e. invitation, copyright letter, etc.)
20:00 < farag> will everything be handeled in Germany? What mechanism will be there
20:01 < farag> to make this legal organization's work simple, easy, and non-centralized
20:01 < farag> as it is and as it was since its birth?
20:01 < farag> I also saw some ads on the web for formation of non-profits which offer
20:01 < farag> online management of its records and so on; will this web-based 
20:01 < farag> administration of the organization be better or the local, ordinary, physical 
20:01 < farag> one in Germany?
20:01 < farag> Will there be a need for annual tax filing by an audit? 
20:01 < farag> IMHO, All these and other relevant questions and scenarios should be 
20:01 < farag> addressed
20:01 < farag> and agreed upon prior to any legal registration.
20:01 < farag> This may lead us too to re-write or at least update the bylaws of the project
20:01 < farag> to reflect the new developments of the organization.
20:01 < KhaledHosny> my idea it that, now there isn't a single copyright holder, and whath the history of people doing some work then disappearing, it'll be hard and gard to handel legal issues in the future
20:01 < KhaledHosny> we even, has a real case; the wordlist
20:01 -!- User14 is now known as Usama_Akkad
20:01 -!- Irssi: #arabeyes: Total of 24 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 23 normal]
20:02 < farag> well..but this is not easy at all
20:02 < kalila> it is not
20:02 < farag> it needs a good plan and clear objectives
20:02 < daif> KhaledHosny: لمن يجب ان تحدث من اجل ذلك ؟
20:03 -!- chahibi_ [n=chahibi@unaffiliated/chahibi] has quit [Connection timed out]
20:03 < kalila> farag: thansk for the write up
20:03 < KhaledHosny> daif: من أجل ماذا؟
20:03 < alnokta> where it will registered?
20:03 < kalila> first, it really dpends on the country we register it in
20:03 < kalila> Egypt? Saudi? UK? Germany? US? somewhere else? where?
20:04 < daif> KhaledHosny: Arabeyes as a legal entity
20:04 < farag> yes..that is "one" of the things, and it is very important thing: place
20:04 < KhaledHosny> lets discuss the basic idea, do we all agree, find it neceassary or a hypocratic waste of time?
20:04 < kalila> as... there may be different requirements
20:04 < alnokta> somewhere were we have people there
20:04 < alnokta> obviously
20:04 < kalila> how easy is it to do it in Egypt? can you alnota and KhaledHosny find out please?
20:05 < farag> alnokta, not only that
20:05 < farag> somewhere where we can defend ourselves legally, "Easily"
20:05 < gharbeia> KhaledHosny: I agree. I think the focus should be on growing a community--with the help of a good website--rather than an NGO
20:05 < KhaledHosny> s/hypocratic/bureaucratic
20:05 < farag> I think debian was not a foundation until recently
20:06 < kalila> hmmm
20:06 < alnokta> ah
20:06 < gharbeia> Egypt can even be a security burden
20:06 < kalila> I suppose it would have helped us with google SoC projects, and other funding stuff
20:06 < farag> I basically and generally agree on the idea
20:06 < daif> http://www.isoc.ae/ - http://www.kacst.edu.sa/ ??
20:06 < kalila> but since big projects didn't even have one, right? do we need it?
20:06 < kalila> daif: yes
20:07 < farag> but, it needs "heavy" discussions and information, and contact with similar foundations to learn from them
20:07 < KhaledHosny> gharbeia: I'm not in a strong favour of it, my concernes are purely practical; I'm seeing legal isues thayt need a way to get around
20:07 < KhaledHosny> it might not be that serous, or the most important thing, depends on how one sees it
20:08 < farag> kalila, funding can be done as before - as I read on the website
20:08 < gharbeia> KhaledHosny: and the little community, as disconnected as I am, will spend the largest time and effort on the NGO rather on projects
20:08 < kalila> In general such organisations are very easy in the UK. I'll see how it can be done here. alnokta and KhaledHosny should see how it could be done in Egypt, can we? (this is just to see what the legal reqs are, now we will discuss whether we need it)
20:08 < KhaledHosny> gharbeia: that is a good point too, we need to look for alternatives as well
20:08 < daif> we have to make presentation (let's make wiki page for Ideas) Arabs like presentation word :)
20:09 < kalila> gharbeia's point is excellent
20:09 < kalila> Here is what I think.... I think we should continue the project as is... if it flourishes again and we think an org will help us we will do it
20:09 < KhaledHosny> kalila: in egypt I've told you need a place and an elected commity (or whatever they call it), but dunno how general security deal with this
20:09 < kalila> what do you guys thnk?
20:10 < farag> kalila, yes, anyone or group can register a foundation..almost anywhere
20:10 < farag> but, we need to detail that. benefits VS cost of time and effort
20:10 < gharbeia> kalila: You need 9 people at minumum, and government can and will interfer
20:10 < KhaledHosny> committee*
20:10 < farghal> can you guys get me a brief idea of what exactly needs to be done in Egypt.. EXACTLY? i'll ask my boss..
20:10 < farghal> hello, lawyer here!
20:10 < KhaledHosny> :)
20:11 < alnokta> :)
20:11 < KhaledHosny> farghal: a non profit organization
20:11 < alnokta> i will ask too
20:11 < farag> "and government can and will interfer" and may just: delete it :)
20:11 < KhaledHosny> أعتقد جمعية أهلية
20:11 < kalila> oooh yeah farghal : YOUR JOB! write us a brief one page discussion on this, will ya please :)
20:11 < kalila> lol
20:11 < alnokta> yes جمعية وليست منظمة
20:11 < alnokta> والا هتروح في داهية
20:11 < kalila> lol
20:11 < daif> kalila: we don't lose any thing try send great email to them ...
20:11 < farghal> kalila, sorry my time and legal mind belongs to mr. boss man
20:12 < farghal> lol :-)
20:12 < alsadi> you will need a lawyer or something like that
20:12 < KhaledHosny> so, what other options
20:12 < kalila> UK
20:12 < KhaledHosny> to deal with copyright issues?
20:12 < farag> in Egypt, "foreign" funding is always suspicious..or at least: a candidate for that
20:12 < alsadi> and egypt is the worst place in the world to register it (so do Jordan)
20:12 < KhaledHosny> other than a NGO
20:12 < kalila> Which I will see how :)
20:13 < alsadi> think about UK, US, or Lebanon
20:13 < kalila> KhaledHosny: a .. GO? a ministry...
20:13 < kalila> the ministry for arabic issues and external funding for translation projects :P
20:13 < alnokta> US (nadim)
20:13 < farag> I mean there is no legal protection, legal processing is very slow, many many problems in courts and files :(
20:13 < gharbeia> KhaledHosny: I'd like a massive wbesite/social-network/launchpad-like/wiki...
20:14 < alsadi> is Nadim still here
20:14 < daif> KhaledHosny: what is "NGO"?
20:14 < alsadi> non gov orig
20:14 < alsadi> org*
20:14 < KhaledHosny> BTW, launchpad is going opensource
20:14 < farag> Khaled, good news!
20:14 < kalila> that's nice
20:15 < alsadi> BTW: fedora people told me that the problem you have with them is solved because they drop the translation stuff they had at 2004
20:15 < daif> yes I heard that 
20:15 < alsadi> they use trasfix
20:15 < KhaledHosny> gharbeia: thje specific cas I'm concerned about here is when say we want to move a certain contribution from a license to another, like relicinsing wordlist under GFDL for inclusion in wikitionary
20:16 < KhaledHosny> gharbeia: whiv=ch faild because arabeyes isn't a copyright holder, and some individual contriputers are missing
20:17 < MSameer> even GNOME can't do that
20:17 < daif> what else we have to discussing and what we have done ?
20:18 < MSameer> KhaledHosny: GNOME had to contact the contributers before relicensing gtksourceview (And evolution too I think)
20:18 < farag> Khaled: "arabeyes isn't a copyright holder" .. copyright doesn't need paperwork 
20:18 < daif> اعتقد ان انجليزيتي مفهومة :)
20:18 < kalila> MSameer: plenty of orgnisations have terms dictating that you submit copyright to the org by submitting to its projects. For example, bsd, apache, java, etc
20:18 < MSameer> KhaledHosny: so arabeyes being a legal entity or not will not help
20:18 < KhaledHosny> gharbeia: I'm certianly with your idea, but it solves another problem
20:18 < kalila> MSameer: it will, so above
20:18 < kalila> s/so/see
20:18 < MSameer> kalila: this is a different situation
20:19 < farag> I mean, making such arrangements in copyrights is easy, doesn't need to be an org
20:19 < KhaledHosny> MSameer: that is why I'm asking, I'm a copyright/;egal noob
20:19 < MSameer> kalila:  and I stop contributing to projects requiring this
20:19 < MSameer> and no. I'm not threatening 
20:19 < gharbeia> KhaledHosny: This takes me back to the kind of projects that should be hosted inside AE. I think all localisation should be based within the original projects, and what stays here is only projects developed here, like a spell/grammar checker, an OCR, propaganda material and the like...
20:20 < kalila> gharbeia: example, GNOME?
20:20 < MSameer> KhaledHosny: did you read what M. Elzubeir wrote long ago ?
20:20 < farag> AE means?
20:20 < MSameer> his future vision for arabeyes ?
20:20 < kalila> Arabeyes
20:20 < gharbeia> kalila: and Drupal
20:20 -!- Usama_Akkad [n=chatzill@82.137.248.28] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0/2008052906]"]
20:20 < gharbeia> farag: ArabEyes :)
20:20 < farag> gharbia, thanks iam still baby here ;-)
20:20 < KhaledHosny> MSameer: no, where is that
20:20 < alnokta> no ofcourse, we should stay as is
20:20 < farag> just learning
20:20 < kalila> gharbeia: I mean example of how to do GNOME with that? so our SVN wouldn't contain any GNOMe files?
20:21 < alnokta> hosting files in our repo allows more people to work
20:21 < alnokta> and facilitates the work
20:21 < MSameer> KhaledHosny: on the mailing list. lemme find it
20:21 < KhaledHosny> gharbeia: we host it in arabeyes for practical reasons, you can't give every one GNOME or Mozilla svn access for example
20:21 < gharbeia> alnokta: It does? I got CVS in Drupal.org much easier than in Arabeys.org, before it was revoked again :)
20:22 < farag> hosting has nothing to do with copyright.
20:22 < kalila> yup
20:22 < alnokta> gharbeia, we fixed that
20:22 < farag> copyright is just what is included in the notes
20:22 < alnokta> we will give access to people lightly now
20:22 < farag> who did what
20:22 < farag> no fear at all
20:22 < farag> registering copyrighted materials is a plus
20:23 < alnokta> also, it makes it possible for quality assurance
20:23 < alnokta> btw, i remebered a great thing
20:23 < KhaledHosny> I'm with very permissive license for translations after all, I'd very will put my work on puplic domain, I WANT POEPLE TO USE MY TRANSLATION :p
20:23 < kalila> hehe :)
20:23 < kalila> right
20:24 < alnokta> kalila, 
20:24 < farag> ;-) :)
20:24 < kalila> yes
20:24 < alnokta> there is that extension for mediawiki we use for mediawiki localization
20:24 < farag> that what free open source made for
20:24 < alnokta> it managaes more than 100+ translation
20:24 < alnokta> and it is actively developed
20:24 < daif> gharbeia:  I spend tow weeks to get SVN account :(
20:25 < stefa1> salam
20:25 < alnokta> see http://translatewiki.net
20:25 < MSameer> KhaledHosny: can't find it but found a "long" thread about the NGO thing
20:25 < KhaledHosny> so a NGO isn't even needed to deal with copyright issues? I mean can arabeyes be a copyright holder for a certain project as it is now?
20:25 < farag> but I agree on keeping everyone's contribution recorded, and all are licensed to AE
20:25 < stefa1> is somebody out there who's got experience with latex (arabtex bibtex)?
20:25 < kalila> dunno, don't think, arabeyes is just a domain at the moment :)
20:26 < KhaledHosny> and even MSameer thginks that kind of copyright asignment isn't desireable
20:26 < kalila> stefa1: Klaus Legally
20:26 < alnokta> http://translatewiki.net/w/i.php?title=Special:Translate&group=core
20:26 < farag> Khaled and kalila: definitly: Yes!
20:26 < farag> AE is copyright holder no doubt
20:26 < MSameer> KhaledHosny: fond it in my inbox.
20:26 < gharbeia> KhaledHosny: In all cases, this will be useful only when someone decides to take someone else to court. How many times did this actually happen in the history of free software?
20:26 < KhaledHosny> stefa1: ConTeXt and XeTeX/XeLaTeX
20:26 < MSameer> KhaledHosny: but that's my personal opinion and I'm not a contributer anyway
20:27 < alnokta> http://translatewiki.net/w/i.php?title=Special%3ATranslate&task=export-as-po&group=core&language=en&limit=100
20:27 < daif> alnokta: stop. ur like a SPAM
20:27 < KhaledHosny> MSameer: I usually highly appreciate your openions ;)
20:27 < MSameer> KhaledHosny: http://lists.arabeyes.org/archives/general/2005/January/msg00049.html
20:28 < stefa1> emacs doen't support bidi so i'am using arabtex
20:28  * KhaledHosny reading that
20:28 < MSameer> KhaledHosny: no don't appreciate my opinions. I'm a contradicted extremist!
20:28 < alnokta> daif, i don't know how i forgot that :P
20:28 < farag> this is a fact: copyright born with the birth of the product
20:28 < KhaledHosny> gharbeia: dunno, but some situations can't be simply dealt with, with all courts aside. we can't lrel;icense others' work
20:28 < MSameer> stefa1: emacs21 + mlterm are fine
20:29 < stefa1> what's mlterm?
20:29 < MSameer> stefa1: what's your distro ?
20:29 < KhaledHosny> MSameer: contradicted extremist <- reminds me with some one ;)
20:29 < stefa1> ubuntu hardy
20:29 < farag> khaled: "we can't license others' work" only if they prohibit to 
20:29 < farag> this is not the case of Opensource GPl and alikes
20:29 < kalila> alright, I think we are done for now. I will write a wrapup email to the mailing list in a few hours. Please read it as it will have pointers as to what we have discussed and where we will go. Thanks everyone for the input
20:30 < MSameer> stefa1: no idea about ubuntu. try enabling universe/multiverse and search for it there
20:30 < farag> I am sorry..I meant: use, not licence
20:30 < farghal> kalila: this type of meeting should be done more often.
20:30 < kalila> Next meeting is Sunday same time next week
20:30 < kalila> EVeryone record that into your calendars
20:31 < MSameer> I always thought that chahibi will be the one pushing for this meeting ;)
20:31 < MSameer> kalila: I can't book the whole day :p
20:31 < stefa1> well i'll look for it
20:31 < kalila> ** SUNDAY 10 AUGUST 2008, 18:00 GMT
20:31 < kalila> PLEASE MAKE IT IN TIME :)
20:31 < farghal> lol :-)